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elcome to our third episode of our Fire in the Southwest series! In this episode, we spoke with Jon Martin, who is the Director of Native American Forest and Rangeland Management Programming at the&nbsp;<a href="https://eri.nau.edu/jonathan-martin-2/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Ecological Restoration Institute</a>&nbsp;at Northern Arizona University. Jon spent three decades working in forestry before retiring, and now uses his extensive interagency background to find pathways that can help tribes achieve their management goals within a Western fire management framework.



This topic is especially prescient right now, as the&nbsp;<a href="https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/wfmmc-final-report-09-2023.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Wildfire Commission Report</a>&nbsp;was explicit in its recommendations to incorporate more Indigenous knowledge into land management (see: recommendations 12, 15, 16). However, while this directive is a step in the right direction, actually accomplishing it will require overcoming significant workforce and budget constraints at the ground level, especially within tribal communities.



Jon and Amanda spoke about what this integration of different management practices can look like, how to overcome those barriers, the differences between cultural and agency fire, as well as the fundamental question of whether or not the differences between cultural and agency fire can be meaningfully reconciled. Jon also provided a great example of this integration working (the&nbsp;<a href="https://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/r3/fire-aviation/?cid=FSEPRD1163532" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">San Carlos Apache Tribe’s use of Crisis Strategy/Infrastructure Bill funding</a>). Finally, we wrapped the episode up with a discussion about the nature of federal land agency employment, which all but requires employees to move locations every 3-5 years to move up in their careers. Jon spoke about how the collaborative/shared stewardship pathway that is needed to meaningfully integrate Indigenous management into Western management requires a wholesale commitment to developing interagency relationships, and how this should be a major priority moving forward.&nbsp;



“It’s not about going out and managing forests, silvicultural prescription or even forest management,” Jon said in our conversation. “It’s become all about people management, almost a social science. I think people are starting to realize that. It’s a softer approach but it’s very real.”



This conversation and the rest of our Fire in the Southwest series is supported by the Southwest Fire Science Consortium, as well as the Arizona Wildfire Initiative. We’re so grateful for their support!



Time stamps:&nbsp;



06:23 – Jon’s Background and Navajo Upbringing&nbsp;



09:42 – Northern Arizona University And Its Programs&nbsp;



11:51 – Native American Forest And Rangeland Management Program&nbsp;



13:00 – San Carlos Apache Tribe



14:12 – Western Land Management Agencies Working With Tribes&nbsp;



15:38 – Opportunities And Funding Becoming Available To Bolster Tribal Management



18:45 – Fire History and Research in the Piñon Juniper Ecosystems of the Southwest



20:38 – Indigenous Fire History In Piñon Juniper Ecosystems&nbsp;



22:41 – Culturally Informed Management In Higher Elevation Forests&nbsp;



25:56 – Increasing Acknowledgement Of Cultural Burning&nbsp;



26:33 – Wildland Fire Management And Mitigation Report Directives for Indigenous Burning



28:10 – San Carlos Apache Tribe—Wildfire Crisis Strategy Funding Leading to Tribal Management Success Story



29:34 – Collaborative Efforts Require Long-Term Commitments and Relationship Building



33:50 – Tribal Management Is Inherently Collaborative&nbsp;



34:20 – Jon’s Career Wins&nbsp;



37:32 – End

Fire in the Southwest Series, Ep. 3: Integrating Indigenous Knowledge into Western Fire Management with Jon Martin

What is it like to watch vegetation type-conversion in real time? How are invasive grasses changing the ecology of the desert and broader Southwest? What’s being done to protect and restore Southwest ponderosa pine forests?&nbsp;



This episode with Tonto National Forest fire ecologist Mary Lata dives into the fire regimes of the Southwest, how they’re changing by the year, how invasive grasses are influencing those changes, and particularly how she’s beginning to see more fire in the Sonoran Desert, which historically did not burn very often. We also spoke about her work within the&nbsp;<a href="https://4fri.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Four Forest Restoration Project,</a>&nbsp;which aims to restore and protect the significant ponderosa pine forests within the Apache-Sitgreaves, Coconino, Kaibab and Tonto national forests.&nbsp;



Mary was preparing for a public meeting the day of our conversation and had a few great slides that she showed me during our conversation, so I’ve uploaded the full video of our conversation&nbsp;<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_Bdqj6YF0&amp;t=3566s" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">to Youtube</a>&nbsp;for folks who would like some more context for the topics we discussed in the podcast.&nbsp;



This episode and our entire series on Fire in the Southwest was made possible with support from&nbsp;<a href="https://www.swfireconsortium.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Southwest Fire Science Consortium&nbsp;</a>&nbsp;and the&nbsp;<a href="https://azwildfire.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Arizona Wildfire Initiative.</a>



Photo above courtesy of Frankie Lopez.



Timstamps:&nbsp;



01:11 – Introduction



05:42 – Mary’s Background and Career



10:04 – Four Forest Restoration Initiative



13:05 – Growing up Near Badlands National Park



15:33 – Different Ecosystems and Fire Regimes of the Southwest



17:19 – The Sonoran Desert



19:39 – Witnessing Desert Conversion Over Time



20:14 – Should Human-Caused Ignitions Be Part Of A Fire Regime?



22:05 – Lightning Caused Fires Versus Human Caused Fire



23:52 – Mary’s Love of Nebraska



27:01 – Grasslands In The Great Plains



30:36 – Current Restoration Work and Climate Change Impacts on Southwest Fire Regimes



34:11 – What is Assisted Migration and Can It Help The Southwest?



38:04 – The Changing Role Of Disturbance In Grassland Systems



39:24 – Grassification of the Sonoran Desert.&nbsp;



45:13 – Outro

Fire in the Southwest Series, Ep.2: The Grassification of the Sonoran Desert with Ecologist Mary Lata

Welcome to the first part of our six-episode series all about the Southwest, sponsored by the Southwest Fire Science Consortium!



In this episode, which is serving as an introduction to the series, we spoke with Mary Stuever, who is the Cimarron District Forester for New Mexico State Forestry. Mary has a breadth of experience across disciplines in the fire world, which is well-reflected in our conversation. She’s worked in suppression, prevention, fire ecology, community education, post-fire support and public information, among other roles in her long career in fire. As such, we touched on everything from her background in suppression (and subsequent health problems from smoke exposure) to her time providing post-fire community support for the folks in Mora, NM, which was devastated by the 2022 Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak Fire. Mora was not only impacted by the fire itself, but also by subsequent flooding and debris flows that destroyed wells, choked out acequias (critical agricultural waterways) and destroyed untold homes, properties and livelihoods.&nbsp;



Mary reflected on the situation she found herself in in such a devastating post-fire environment, including what was needed and opportunities she saw for helping other communities prepare for similar situations. She also gave us a quick Southwest Fire Ecology 101 lesson, and was all around a great guest to chat about the huge diversity of wildfire issues facing the Southwest right now. Most of the topics we spoke to will be elaborated on in greater detail in upcoming episodes, so we hope you’ll stick around and listen in as we release more episodes of this series over the next six weeks.&nbsp;



For more information on post-fire impacts in Mora, check out some of the&nbsp;<a href="https://sourcenm.com/2022/07/25/after-fire-and-flood-ash-chokes-acequias-in-northern-nm/">fantastic reporting &nbsp;Patrick Lohmann of Source NM did both during and after the fire.</a>



For more information about our sponsor for this series, the Southwest Fire Science Consortium, check out their&nbsp;<a href="https://www.swfireconsortium.org/">website</a>, which is chock-full of resources related to Southwest fire ecology, research, management and communications.&nbsp;



Timestamps:&nbsp;



08:55 – Role Of Fire In The Landscape



10:10 – Health Issues in Wildland Firefighting



12:13 – Basing Operational Decisions On Smoke Exposure



14:18 – Fire Ecology of the Southwest 101



23:22 – Intersecting Cultures And Fire Management in the Southwest



25:34 – Ecosystem-Specific Challenges and Different Tactics For Different Landscapes



27:51 – Mary’s Experience Providing Post-Fire Support In Mora, NM (Following Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak)



36:29 – Post-Fire Recommendations For The Southwest



40:49 – Utilizing Art And Theater For Fire Education



44:03 – Bringing Community Members In As Partners

Southwest Series Ep. 1: Southwest Fire Regimes and Post-Fire Community Support with Mary Stuever

The long-awaited beaver episode! In this episode, we learn about how beavers are not only champions of wildfire resilience but are also sleeper endurance athletes (climbing mountains to find new watersheds), dedicated anti-capitalists (not giving a **** about the regulatory or material concerns of humans), expert engineers (casually restoring entire watersheds) and pretty handy companions to have in our pursuit of restoring habitat and landscape resilience across the West (and beyond).



Dr. Emily Fairfax and Dr. Sophie Gilbert joined us to talk about everything from nature-based climate solutions to why we should learn to better coexist with beavers to that one time Idaho Fish and Game<a href="https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/why-beavers-were-parachuted-into-the-idaho-wilderness" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">&nbsp;decided to try parachuting beavers into mountain meadows in Idaho</a>. Rest assured there were also a lot of beaver puns.



Beavers’ role in building fire resilience is probably one of the most requested episode topics we’ve had since starting the podcast in 2020. We got a pretty solid Beavers and Fire 101, but also had the chance to dig in deeper to talk about areas where beavers have made an impact in protecting structures during wildfires, how Sophie’s work at&nbsp;<a href="https://www.vibrantplanet.net/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Vibrant Planet</a>&nbsp;is helping to prioritize areas where beavers and nature-based interventions (like beaver dam analogs) could make the biggest difference, as well as what both of their visions are for an idyllic beaver-friendly and more fire-resilient world. Also, be sure to stick around to the end of the episode where we speak about the concept of a “Stewardship Economy,” or creating a world that is more supportive of community building and stewardship/restoration work that supports both resilience and community—in other words, the things we really need not only in the wildfire space but also in the broader climate/conservation etc spaces.&nbsp;



Here are links to a few of the things mentioned throughout the episode:&nbsp;



<a href="https://birchbarkbooks.com/products/beaver-bison-horse" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Beaver, Bison, Horse Book</a>—The Traditional Knowledge and Ecology of the Northern Great Plains



<a href="https://emilyfairfaxscience.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Emily Fairfax’s website/research.&nbsp;</a>



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAM94B73bzE" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">A fantastic stop-motion rendering of how beaver’s change the landscape and build fire resilience (created by Emily!)</a>



<a href="https://www.vibrantplanet.net/landtender" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Vibrant Planet’s Land Tender—</a>&nbsp;a multi-faceted planning and monitoring platform for treatment area prioritization, risk mapping and decision making.&nbsp;



<a href="https://www.patagonia.com/stories/leave-it-to-beavers/story-149108.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">“Leave It To Beavers,” Patagonia’s Cleanest Line Blog</a>—Amanda’s story about Trout Unlimited and Northwest Youth Corps crews building BDA’s in the John Day River watershed.

THE BEAVER EPISODE (finally!) with Dr. Emily Fairfax and Dr. Sophie Gilbert

Today’s episode is a special one. We collaborated with the&nbsp;<a href="https://www.montanamedialab.com/">Montana Media Lab</a>—a program of the University of Montana’s School of Journalism—to help support their winter “Youth Voices” workshop, which empowers young rural and Indigenous storytellers to learn more about audio storytelling while sharing stories from their communities. This episode features five stories from high school students in Browning and Florence, Montana, all of which are centered around wildfire’s presence in their communities.



Story one (timestamp: 6:32) centers on the experiences of volunteer wildland firefighters on the Blackfeet (Niitsitapi) Reservation, as well as on the history of Indigenous burning on Blackfeet Nation ancestral lands.



Story two (12:29) is a profile of a student’s grandfather, who spoke about his experiences as a Chief Mountain hotshot back in the 70s and 80s.



Episode three (16:34) focuses on the experiences of a few modern day members of the Chief Mountain Hotshots.



Story four (19:49) highlights how wildfires impact wildlife, and provided an opportunity for students to speak with employees at their reservation’s fish and wildlife office.



Finally, story five (24:11) shows the unexpected impacts of having an incident command post pop up at your high school during a major wildfire in your area.



We owe a huge thank you to the students and teachers who worked hard to make this episode possible, as well as to Mary Auld of the Montana Media Lab, who pitched and coordinated this initiative.&nbsp;



This episode was made possible with support from the&nbsp;<a href="https://wildfire-experience.org/">American Wildfire Experience</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a href="https://www.mysteryranch.com/Packs/Fire/Hotshots-Handcrew">Mystery Ranch Backpacks</a>.&nbsp;



For updates on the American Wildfire Experience’s 2024 Digital Storytelling Micro Grants Program, follow them on Instagram at <a href="https://www.instagram.com/wildfire.experience?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&amp;igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@wildfire.experience</a> and <a href="https://www.instagram.com/thesmokeygeneration?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&amp;igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==">@thesmokeygeneration.</a>

Experiences of Wildfire in Montana, with Young Indigenous Storytellers and the Montana Media Lab

Life with Fire Podcast

Life with Fire Podcast

Episodes

Ep. 66—Fire in the Southwest Series, Ep. 3: Integrating Indigenous Knowledge into Western Fire Management with Jon Martin

Ep. 65—Fire in the Southwest Series, Ep.2: The Grassification of the Sonoran Desert with Ecologist Mary Lata

Ep. 64—Southwest Series Ep. 1: Southwest Fire Regimes and Post-Fire Community Support with Mary Stuever

Ep. 63—THE BEAVER EPISODE (finally!) with Dr. Emily Fairfax and Dr. Sophie Gilbert

Ep. 62—Experiences of Wildfire in Montana, with Young Indigenous Storytellers and the Montana Media Lab

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